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COMMENTARY: Patrick Buchanan on Tariffs -- The Taxes That Made America Great
#21
Good enough then @HomeLessPatriot , I ' ll let this ride .

Guess the Team Doctor should be of more concern . . . simply have a rough time keeping up with Old News with all the New News daily .


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Celebrating Over 30 Years as a " Designated Paper Terrorist " - I Will Stand Corrected - No Legal Advice or Recommended Course of Action Expressed or Implied

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#22
I do get @Treebeard 's apprehension. I am apprehensive as well. There is a disingenuousness with saying, "The US economy is too big to fail right now." Which is kind of what the President is selling us. If he would say, "China is a threat to this nation and we may have to take our lumps for a bit to reign them in." Yeah....that would make sense. Farmers in the Midwest are already feeling the sting, as China is the largest importer of many of their commodities. Soybeans and other seed oils....to be honest with saying that goods and services prices are going to go up isn't politically expedient, but it is honest. Trump needs the farm belt vote. It is one of his biggest voting bases. History says that trade wars raise prices domestically. If the President is playing chicken with China, we won't win because China doesn't play by the the same rules as we do. They don't regulate like we do. And they have others (looking at you, Africa) who they can use to circumvent. We need to have other nations on board with this for it to work in a long run. Not an economist, but have been listening to some on both sides and have been pondering what they say.
"Why don't you try speaking in words instead of your damn dirty lies?"
~Louise Belcher
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#23
(05-15-2019, 07:25 AM)T-Dub Wrote: Pinned per request.

Hey @T-Dub Thanks for the pin!
"It’s Easier to Fool People Than to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled."
- Mark Twain
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#24
(05-15-2019, 11:28 AM)Deplorably Nameless Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 11:17 AM)Treebeard Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 11:00 AM)Deplorably Nameless Wrote: @Treebeard you must be very young.

I am not very young and have an M.A. in History.
You didn't understand my posts here. Read them again and please quote whatever issue you perceive.

I understood your posts.

But do you understand what you are standing against?

Are you being a contrarian on purpose or are you really not aware of how China was created by the EPA while America was cut at the knees by the same agency?

If you want Americans to be successful and prosperous, we can't have another nation continue to lord their factories, the factories we help fund through past administrations, over us.

Well, here I need to say that no, you do not understand my posts at all, and that can easily be affirmed.
Here I will repost them.

"This is 2019 not 1890. The U.S. does not domestically produce vast sectors of manufactured goods anymore.
Tariffs would be more acceptable if they were instituted not only vis-a-vis China but all the other cheap goods
importers. They can be part of a comprehensive plan. In this case, they are not, they are being used as weapons
in an executive card game, with no discussion and no warning. So farmers and many others here and in China
are being punished with no time to adjust their planning.

There's not a lot to discuss at this juncture because no deal is on the table, just tit-for-tats.
Let's see a deal then evaluate its merits and shortcomings at the appropriate time. Trump needs to do a
better job of telling the American people what he wants to do and how to do it - or he will lose on this issue. "
--------------------
"We need to support re-integration of entire sectors into the domestic realm. This will require participation by the investment class that goes against their laissez-faire philosophy. That means it will have to be forced upon them, or bottom-up directives need to be implemented. By bottom-up I mean loans to those who are not already billionaires. We haven't produced a single television since 1999 or any textiles to speak of since the early '90s.
Consumer goods, toys, all needs to be brought back. If he is serious about forging such an effort, I would support that.
Much is already not even made in China. So much clothing is made all over Asia, Africa, Mexico. How ironic that our clothing is made in the third world then returned as charity donations to the same areas which produce them. Then these people want to come here because the capitalists do not share the wealth with them. Laissez-faire capitalism is the enemy of the working man. It is destructive to community self-sufficiency and family businesses worldwide. It has also resulted in streamlined products without quality, character and craftsmanship."
---------------------
and yesterday:

"American and other international corporations are responsible for opening shop in China,
not native Chinese. This all started with the Bush New World Order in 1991, China was declared
MOST favored nation in trade. Then Nafta, Gatt, de-regulation and tax breaks.
America is responsible. It was Americans' choice to vote for candidates like Bush and Clinton who openly pushed
for this to happen. Big Business and Big Government > Small Business and Small Government.
Most of your "Chinese" products are designed and managed by American/Western Offshore LLCs."

President Bush Renews China's Favored-Nation Trading Status (June 3, 1990)
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-...story.html
Bush Seeks Trade Benefits for China (June 3, 1992)
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/03/world...china.html

China exports to US chart:
[Image: china-exports-to-united-states@2x.png?s=...2=20191231]
https://tradingeconomics.com/china/expor...ted-states
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#25
Fuck China and their cheap goods. Why do we even do business with countries who hate us? We give them our money, we arm them......who the fuck arms and pays their enemy???? Sun Tzu would roll in his grave seeing that shit....its just for constant conflict/war....
"Here they defended themselves to the last, those who still had swords using them, and the others resisting with their hands and teeth."Herodotus VII, 225
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#26
(05-15-2019, 09:56 AM)Pintaday Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 09:51 AM)Treebeard Wrote: This is 2019 not 1890. The U.S. does not domestically produce vast sectors of manufactured goods anymore.
Tariffs would be more acceptable if they were instituted not only vis-a-vis China but all the other cheap goods
importers. They can be part of a comprehensive plan. In this case, they are not, they are being used as weapons
in an executive card game, with no discussion and no warning. So farmers and many others here and in China
are being punished with no time to adjust their planning.

There's not a lot to discuss at this juncture because no deal is on the table, just tit-for-tats.
Let's see a deal then evaluate its merits and shortcomings at the appropriate time. Trump needs to do a
better job of telling the American people what he wants to do and how to do it - or he will lose on this issue.

Trump is negotiating, something he is a wizard at. He will not let the Chinese know what cards he holds or how he plans to play them.

Trump is holding aces for his hand. I read that Kudlow stated that if the 25% tariff is applied to the full 500 billion dollars of Chinese imports, it will crash their economy in a couple of weeks. Their market will tank and manufacturers will be scrambling to leave "The Middle Kingdom".

They either submit or eat a shit sandwich. They won't like the sandwich and they will forever be gunning for us.

V6sRZf4
"It’s Easier to Fool People Than to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled."
- Mark Twain
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#27
(05-15-2019, 09:51 AM)Treebeard Wrote: This is 2019 not 1890. The U.S. does not domestically produce vast sectors of manufactured goods anymore.
Tariffs would be more acceptable if they were instituted not only vis-a-vis China but all the other cheap goods
importers. They can be part of a comprehensive plan. In this case, they are not, they are being used as weapons
in an executive card game, with no discussion and no warning. So farmers and many others here and in China
are being punished with no time to adjust their planning.

There's not a lot to discuss at this juncture because no deal is on the table, just tit-for-tats.
Let's see a deal then evaluate its merits and shortcomings at the appropriate time. Trump needs to do a
better job of telling the American people what he wants to do and how to do it - or he will lose on this issue.

Which vast sectors of manufactured goods aren't produced (or capable of being made) in this country?

POTUS told China in 2016 what he would do. Smart manufacturers left China, many are now leaving and more will.

The American farmer will still be able to sell his/her products ~ tariff money will purchase to share with the world, for starters.

The DEAL is free trade. No tariffs, either side = win/win.

I can't imagine you have NOT heard POTUS explain this to the American people ~ oh, unless you only listen to msm.
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#28
(05-15-2019, 09:51 AM)Treebeard Wrote: This is 2019 not 1890. The U.S. does not domestically produce vast sectors of manufactured goods anymore.
Tariffs would be more acceptable if they were instituted not only vis-a-vis China but all the other cheap goods
importers. They can be part of a comprehensive plan. In this case, they are not, they are being used as weapons
in an executive card game, with no discussion and no warning. So farmers and many others here and in China
are being punished with no time to adjust their planning.

There's not a lot to discuss at this juncture because no deal is on the table, just tit-for-tats.
Let's see a deal then evaluate its merits and shortcomings at the appropriate time. Trump needs to do a
better job of telling the American people what he wants to do and how to do it - or he will lose on this issue.

China is really just throwing a tantrum because this is the icing on the cake for them. China has been having troubles for a few years. Even before Trump started talking to them. First corporations were complaining about China stealing their intellectual property. So some of them were finding they did not want to do business in China anymore. They've moved out. Then you have the other corporations. These went for the slave labor.

After years of slave labor conditions, the Chinese people started to revolt. They started asking for better hours, better pay, cleaner air. Pollution is so bad, people are sick of it. Literally. So China has decided to clean their environment and the companies now have to retrofit their factories just like they had to do in the USA. China has enacted pollution laws in the last 10 years or so. And these things cost money. So for the last 5-10 years or so, Chinese factories have been moving 'offshore' to Thailand, Vietnam, and other small countries down there that don't cost as much to do business in. Even Chinese corporations/companies/factories are moving off shore. Taking the jobs with them. And the new factories and such are automated. Just like Amazon is here.

The Chinese economy has been slowing down for a few years now and the .gov is panicking about it. They have to have so much growth or they are not doing well. And the .gov of China is stepping out into the world and passing out money all over. But some countries are starting to refuse this easy money from China. They have seen the light. And this, along with all the other problems that China has, even before the tariffs, which will cause a lot more junk factories to close and put a lot of people out of work....

The other blow to them is the loss of their 'special trading' status. When they lost that, they also lost basically "free" shipping for them. The USA postal agency has been subsidizing them for years because of this "special trading" status. That's over. Chinese products just went up because of this. So China decided to eat the shipping cost I am thinking. But now we hit them with tariffs. They do not see a way to subsidize that and give out predatory loans and build their Silk road. China is finding out their budget they were thinking of.... Is not there. And as they have been spoiled so long by this easy living off the USA and also the EU by the way, as they also have the same problems with China the USA has... And China is getting it from all sides. They are livid. Throwing a tantrum.

This will hurt China more than US-A. But it will also hurt here.

A few links that show that China sends us junk. And they import mainly food and energy. Who do you think is going to fold first? The one importing toys and junk or the one importing food and energy? popnana

https://www.uschina.org/sites/default/fi...2018_1.pdf
http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/to...ports.html
https://commodity.com/china/

China is really in a hard spot. The USA is but it's not. We have what we need to survive and we can do what everyone else even China does. We can go elsewhere to buy stuff. They call this the 'go-around'. A lot of smaller countries might make out in this trade war. And the EU is also going to put tariffs on China or take away their "special" status.It's a matter of time now. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-ch...SKCN1R31H3
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac...ure-mounts
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#29
(05-15-2019, 07:10 PM)DaJavoo Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 09:51 AM)Treebeard Wrote: This is 2019 not 1890. The U.S. does not domestically produce vast sectors of manufactured goods anymore.
Tariffs would be more acceptable if they were instituted not only vis-a-vis China but all the other cheap goods
importers. They can be part of a comprehensive plan. In this case, they are not, they are being used as weapons
in an executive card game, with no discussion and no warning. So farmers and many others here and in China
are being punished with no time to adjust their planning.

There's not a lot to discuss at this juncture because no deal is on the table, just tit-for-tats.
Let's see a deal then evaluate its merits and shortcomings at the appropriate time. Trump needs to do a
better job of telling the American people what he wants to do and how to do it - or he will lose on this issue.

Which vast sectors of manufactured goods aren't produced (or capable of being made) in this country?

POTUS told China in 2016 what he would do.  Smart manufacturers left China, many are now leaving and more will.

The American farmer will still be able to sell his/her products ~ tariff money will purchase to share with the world, for starters.

The DEAL is free trade.  No tariffs, either side = win/win.  

I can't imagine you have NOT heard POTUS explain this to the American people ~ oh, unless you only listen to msm.

I oppose free trade. My argument is not with tariffs, it's about using tariffs as a threat and taking everyone by surprise
as opposed to including them as PART of a comprehensive plan to MAGA.

Entire sectors off top of my head? Textiles, Apparel, Jewelry, Consumer Electronics, Toys, Furniture, Disposables, etc.
I'm not saying none of this is made here (although that is the case in some), but that it's a smidgen compared
to what it used to be, and what it should be, if you want to have a country that produces objects, not just services.
You might also consider that much of the American company data is not even REALLY MADE HERE, it is made elsewhere
but the revenues accrue to American companies. For example your Levis made in Lesotho or your car parts made in Mexico,
your home goods made in Taiwan but revenue produced to an American LLC, with 10 people in it.
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#30
(05-15-2019, 07:47 PM)Treebeard Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 07:10 PM)DaJavoo Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 09:51 AM)Treebeard Wrote: This is 2019 not 1890. The U.S. does not domestically produce vast sectors of manufactured goods anymore.
Tariffs would be more acceptable if they were instituted not only vis-a-vis China but all the other cheap goods
importers. They can be part of a comprehensive plan. In this case, they are not, they are being used as weapons
in an executive card game, with no discussion and no warning. So farmers and many others here and in China
are being punished with no time to adjust their planning.

There's not a lot to discuss at this juncture because no deal is on the table, just tit-for-tats.
Let's see a deal then evaluate its merits and shortcomings at the appropriate time. Trump needs to do a
better job of telling the American people what he wants to do and how to do it - or he will lose on this issue.

Which vast sectors of manufactured goods aren't produced (or capable of being made) in this country?

POTUS told China in 2016 what he would do.  Smart manufacturers left China, many are now leaving and more will.

The American farmer will still be able to sell his/her products ~ tariff money will purchase to share with the world, for starters.

The DEAL is free trade.  No tariffs, either side = win/win.  

I can't imagine you have NOT heard POTUS explain this to the American people ~ oh, unless you only listen to msm.

I oppose free trade. My argument is not with tariffs, it's about using tariffs as a threat and taking everyone by surprise
as opposed to including them as PART of a comprehensive plan to MAGA.

I don't agree with free trade either. That's not fair trade. It's how we got into this mess in the first place by allowing other countries to undercut our making stuff.

I hear all these polluted countries, and you can blame the industrialized, western countries if you want to but they didn't do this all on their own. They had help all along the journey. And the peons are never asked so they don't count. In any country, peons don't count. The USA had to fight for labor laws and such so others will have to fight for theirs too and the Chinese have stepped up to the plate some with their demands. Just like Americans did. The Chinese did not realize that the companies would move out on them to green pastures. They did not put that together, just like the Americans didn't put it together. And even the ones that did, no one listened or cared. So we are where we are. Now China is putting on restrictions and the USA is taking away restrictions at the same time. This is actually more complicated than just tariffs and such.

These tariffs were not a "threat". They were a promise if conditions were not met. And Trump is delivering on his promise. And Trump did not keep these tariffs a secret. They have been talked about for all the years Trump has been in office and Trump has talked about them for decades. Sounded like Ross Perot years ago and still does. Ross was just ahead of his time is all.

These tariffs are a part of a comprehensive plan of trade with China. China subsidizes and dumps product on the USA markets and others to run them out of business. Once they are the sole one left standing and have a monopoly, they raise the prices. That's standard business practice. Walmart has this practice down to a science. But no one believed me when I said that when Walmart was the last one standing, they would control the prices of what you buy and the brand or product.  Facepalm

Trump wants fair trade. Not dumping of product or monopolies. Trump does not want free trade. That's just a label most people think they understand. But it's actually fair trade he wants. And sometimes, fair trade needs tariffs. Especially if the other country is subsidizing their product and you are not. China is ripping off the USA and Europe. China is ripping off anyone that is not China. Russia watches them closely for being such "good" friends and all.  Wink
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