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Full Version: The Impossibility of Life Without a Cause
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For most of my Christian life, I accepted (with a certain amount of shame) that I could not argue against the religion of atheism. After all, they have empirical evidence on their side! I would cower to deep discussions because "faith" was never an acceptable answer. This, of course, harbored a small amount of doubt in my life which grew larger between me and my God.

But, a few years ago God set me on a path that would change my life forever. You see, when God told me to love Him with all my heart and soul I believe that I did. My faith did take me a great distance, but I still fell short. That's because God tells us to also love Him with all of our mind. So I set out to do just that and I have been continually blown away by what I have found.

The truth is, the ability to defend your Christian faith is an intellectually rigorous task.  What I think a lot of Christians don’t realize is that our faith is not built on maybes and guesses, it is built on certainty. Without God, we can’t make sense of the world.  Without God we have no foundation for knowledge, for science, for ethics…etc. Apart from God, you can know nothing. This is the stuff life is made of… This is what is going to help get you through those difficult moments when life crashes into you head on and doesn’t stop.

It is my contention to show that material atheism is deeply rooted in faith. From its very onset, the empirical evidence works against the material atheists worldview. As we work from the beginning, outwards, we find that belief becomes a paramount cornerstone vs the long taught lie that empirical evidence leads to life without a cause.

If you disagree with this, let's start at the beginning.

Can you point me to empirical evidence demonstrating that nothing has ever created anything? Scientists pretty universally believe that the universe had a beginning, which we refer to as the big bang. The moment that nothing exploded into everything we observe today. When, in any observable scientific observations has this ever been shown to happen without cause? That is the presuppositional belief for all material atheists. The beginning, where nothing created everything. Because this belief that nothing can create anything cannot be duplicated without cause, it is just that, a belief. Even Aristotle realized this when he said there must be an unmoved mover. That's 1.

Once we finish discussing that, we can move onto the empirical scientific evidence for non organic matter erupting into organic matter without cause and how, because of the absolute lack of evidence for that possibility, this is also built on belief. That's number 2.

After you explain that, we can move on to the probability of even one simple protein forming by chance, followed by the near zero (because there can't really be zero in science, right?) chance of the required ingredients for a simple cell being present in the same micro environment at same time by chance. Be careful, this section will be math intensive and includes probabilities which clearly dictate the inability, given the earth's alleged age, for this to have occurred by chance. This is the third belief and we aren't done yet.

Naturally, I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the absolute lack of evidence for Darwinian macro-evolution in the fossil records. Some people mention whales, and if we can get this far into the conversation, you'll find that theory to be full of enough holes that belief and faith are absolutely required to make it your truth. This includes a discovery made in 2016 which, again, will serve to defeat the Darwinian gradualistic evolutionary theory. Other topics will include irreducible complexity (for example - flagellem motor), some problematic chicken and egg paradoxes (like ribosomes/proteins) and differential reproduction to name a couple.

Then we can move past that and discuss the many philosophical problems of morality, free will and even emotional expressions like love. Because again, you can't provide any empirical evidence to show that chemical reactions create ideas, which are immaterial.

Under serious scrutiny, I'm afraid that the material atheist worldview leaves you without any rational foundation for reasoning, without any rational foundation for the origin of life, without any rational foundation for science or for why morality has any role in your life.

So, to begin, please start by presenting empirical evidence for the presuppositional belief that nothing can create anything. If you cannot provide any empirical evidence for this, I see no reason to move onto the next hurdle and will ignore any attempts to do so.
Good post OP! Heartflowers

I tend to agree with you on most parts, I do however feel that 'God' is all math in our universe.

Our universe resides in a dimension far removed from the source/God/unity/etc.
Having such a vast distance between us and God we can only be impacted through certain parameters.

For example; sacred geometry: if certain shapes can hold all the keys/equations to what is within the universe, then this is God to us.
...Perhaps this is why many Jewish people are so involved with mathematics.

We can have a nice long conversation about all these points if you wish, but for now I will keep my response short
My faith is based on an intelligent mind comes before the creation of all matter and not the other way around. Matter cannot create a thinking and intelligent mind so there was a creator first, so atheism is wrong.
(12-04-2018, 02:36 PM)Cryptic_Mole Wrote: [ -> ]My faith is based on an intelligent mind comes before the creation of all matter and not the other way around. Matter cannot create a thinking and intelligent mind so there was a creator first, so atheism is wrong.

I don't think that most scientific minded Atheists believe matter created anything...

But more that mater is created (as all things) from the vibration and frequency of energy within an unknown field/plane...

I don't count myself as Atheist as I have no belief system that there is NO God...

Nor am I any kind of Theist as I have no belief system in there being a God...

I tend towards a belief (or rather open mindedness to the possibility) that the intelligence/conscientiousness of the universe is that of ALL and we are a part of ALL and ALL is the very vibration and frequency of energy within the ALL which connects the ALL and is only defined by slow energy vibratory frequency = SOLID/EARTH - mild energy vibratory frequency = LIQUID/WATER - medium energy vibratory frequency = GAS/WIND - high energy vibratory frequency = PLASMA/FIRE...

Not ALL people who do not believe in human conjured anthropomorphic Gods are Atheists...
(12-04-2018, 02:50 PM)Munchaab Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-04-2018, 02:36 PM)Cryptic_Mole Wrote: [ -> ]My faith is based on an intelligent mind comes before the creation of all matter and not the other way around. Matter cannot create a thinking and intelligent mind so there was a creator first, so atheism is wrong.

I don't think that most scientific minded Atheists believe matter created anything...

But more that mater is created (as all things) from the vibration and frequency of energy within an unknown field/plane...

I don't count myself as Atheist as I have no belief system that there is NO God...

Nor am I any kind of Theist as I have no belief system in there being a God...

I tend towards a belief (or rather open mindedness to the possibility) that the intelligence/conscientiousness of the universe is that of ALL and we are a part of ALL and ALL is the very vibration and frequency of energy within the ALL which connects the ALL and is only defined by slow energy vibratory frequency = SOLID/EARTH - mild energy vibratory frequency = LIQUID/WATER - medium energy vibratory frequency = GAS/AIR - high energy vibratory frequency = PLASMA/FIRE...

Not ALL people who do not believe in human conjured anthropomorphic Gods are Atheists...

It appears you believe (for lack of a better term, I suppose) that energy/vibration/frequency is what created everything we see today.

What is your evidence for that?
Where did the energy/vibration/frequency come from?
(12-04-2018, 02:56 PM)Walk Softly Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-04-2018, 02:50 PM)Munchaab Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-04-2018, 02:36 PM)Cryptic_Mole Wrote: [ -> ]My faith is based on an intelligent mind comes before the creation of all matter and not the other way around. Matter cannot create a thinking and intelligent mind so there was a creator first, so atheism is wrong.

I don't think that most scientific minded Atheists believe matter created anything...

But more that mater is created (as all things) from the vibration and frequency of energy within an unknown field/plane...

I don't count myself as Atheist as I have no belief system that there is NO God...

Nor am I any kind of Theist as I have no belief system in there being a God...

I tend towards a belief (or rather open mindedness to the possibility) that the intelligence/conscientiousness of the universe is that of ALL and we are a part of ALL and ALL is the very vibration and frequency of energy within the ALL which connects the ALL and is only defined by slow energy vibratory frequency = SOLID/EARTH - mild energy vibratory frequency = LIQUID/WATER - medium energy vibratory frequency = GAS/AIR - high energy vibratory frequency = PLASMA/FIRE...

Not ALL people who do not believe in human conjured anthropomorphic Gods are Atheists...

It appears you believe (for lack of a better term, I suppose) that energy/vibration/frequency is what created everything we see today.  

What is your evidence for that?  
Where did the energy/vibration/frequency come from?

Looking at what IS - not where it came from - I'm not Buddha...

Heartflowers Heartflowers Heartflowers
(12-04-2018, 02:36 PM)Cryptic_Mole Wrote: [ -> ]My faith is based on an intelligent mind comes before the creation of all matter and not the other way around. Matter cannot create a thinking and intelligent mind so there was a creator first, so atheism is wrong.

I'm sure we've all explored the double slit experiment, correct?

So, the conclusion drawn is the observer influences the results, layman term
In order for our universe to have a history, our solar system, our earth - there must be an observer.

...Very layman explanation, but I think it paints a good picture
(12-04-2018, 03:02 PM)unclelunatic Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-04-2018, 02:36 PM)Cryptic_Mole Wrote: [ -> ]My faith is based on an intelligent mind comes before the creation of all matter and not the other way around. Matter cannot create a thinking and intelligent mind so there was a creator first, so atheism is wrong.

I'm sure we've all explored the double slit experiment, correct?

So, the conclusion drawn is the observer influences the results, layman term
In order for our universe to have a history, our solar system, our earth - there must be an observer.

...Very layman explanation, but I think it paints a good picture

Well said, friend. I love when someone can back-up a creator using quantum physics; the very thing that science uses to disprove one. Heartflowers
(12-04-2018, 02:56 PM)Walk Softly Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-04-2018, 02:50 PM)Munchaab Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-04-2018, 02:36 PM)Cryptic_Mole Wrote: [ -> ]My faith is based on an intelligent mind comes before the creation of all matter and not the other way around. Matter cannot create a thinking and intelligent mind so there was a creator first, so atheism is wrong.

I don't think that most scientific minded Atheists believe matter created anything...

But more that mater is created (as all things) from the vibration and frequency of energy within an unknown field/plane...

I don't count myself as Atheist as I have no belief system that there is NO God...

Nor am I any kind of Theist as I have no belief system in there being a God...

I tend towards a belief (or rather open mindedness to the possibility) that the intelligence/conscientiousness of the universe is that of ALL and we are a part of ALL and ALL is the very vibration and frequency of energy within the ALL which connects the ALL and is only defined by slow energy vibratory frequency = SOLID/EARTH - mild energy vibratory frequency = LIQUID/WATER - medium energy vibratory frequency = GAS/AIR - high energy vibratory frequency = PLASMA/FIRE...

Not ALL people who do not believe in human conjured anthropomorphic Gods are Atheists...

It appears you believe (for lack of a better term, I suppose) that energy/vibration/frequency is what created everything we see today.  

What is your evidence for that?  
Where did the energy/vibration/frequency come from?

Having said what I said above...

There is a very old adage of Brahman origin (I believe) that God was just God = Nothing - and created ALL in an effort to understand itself - so we are ALL a part of the ALL and in such are a tiny part of God experiencing itself...

Heartflowers Heartflowers Heartflowers
(12-04-2018, 02:50 PM)Munchaab Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-04-2018, 02:36 PM)Cryptic_Mole Wrote: [ -> ]My faith is based on an intelligent mind comes before the creation of all matter and not the other way around. Matter cannot create a thinking and intelligent mind so there was a creator first, so atheism is wrong.

I don't think that most scientific minded Atheists believe matter created anything...

But more that mater is created (as all things) from the vibration and frequency of energy within an unknown field/plane...

I don't count myself as Atheist as I have no belief system that there is NO God...

Nor am I any kind of Theist as I have no belief system in there being a God...

I tend towards a belief (or rather open mindedness to the possibility) that the intelligence/conscientiousness of the universe is that of ALL and we are a part of ALL and ALL is the very vibration and frequency of energy within the ALL which connects the ALL and is only defined by slow energy vibratory frequency = SOLID/EARTH - mild energy vibratory frequency = LIQUID/WATER - medium energy vibratory frequency = GAS/AIR - high energy vibratory frequency = PLASMA/FIRE...

Not ALL people who do not believe in human conjured anthropomorphic Gods are Atheists...

Great post.

Consciousness creates matter is my opinion.

According to books I have read like Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts.

I am not an atheist by any means, but I also do not believe in worshipping or praising anything. Everything about the bible concept of man and god is based on kings and queens treatment in ancient times. I bow down to nobody, not no man nor any god. If a god needs me to bow he isnt so powerful after-all now is he?
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